Jason Falls

October 26, 2021

 

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Description

In this episode, Chris discusses with Jason about the difference between influence and influencer marketing.  They discuss topics such as internal vs external influencers, creating a social media positive culture, and how marketing can connect with HR.

Jason Falls solves problems. Most of the time they have to do with digital marketing for Cornett, a full-service advertising agency based in Lexington, Ky., named the Southeast’s Small Agency of the Year by Ad Age in 2021. There he leads digital strategy and hosts two marketing podcasts (Digging Deeper and Winfluence). His work has touched a number of major brands and has been recognized with several national and many regional awards including a 2020 Shorty Award for his influencer marketing work. His third book, Winfluence: Reframing Influencer Marketing to Ignite Your Brand, was published in February 2021 from Entrepreneur Press.

 

Transcript

Chris: 

Does influencer marketing require an Instagram account filled with expertly timed photo in an extravagant locale

Jason Falls: 

If I’m trying to influence I could do that on these social channels with these individuals that are called influencers who have followings, but I could also influence using people who are popular in the community. First of all, you’ve got to embrace that culture internally and be okay with people inside your company having their own social media presences and leveraging those social media presences.

Chris: 

Good day and welcome to the talent tide podcast. My name is Chris Nichols. And today we have a very special guest. His name is Jason Falls out of Louisville, Kentucky, and he has the best beard in the game. Jason Welcome to the show. How are you today?

Jason Falls: 

Thanks Chris there might be a couple people that could compete a little bit not trimmed mine lately so

Chris: 

you’ve been trimming it up because you’ve got some other pictures here online that are that are pretty spectacular You look like you know you belong and in a 70s Rock Band maybe ZZ Top i don’t know

Jason Falls: 

i was i was going for the ZZ Top look and then and it got it got probably about down to here it was pretty lengthy but then I started getting grief from my family and so I trimmed it a little bit I probably trimmed it a little too much I’m gonna let it grow a little

Chris: 

bit dad you got something in your beard right? Yeah.

Jason Falls: 

Oh, I was I was definitely hiding some Skittles or something.

Chris: 

The talent tide podcast is sponsored by endevis. endevis is a full service recruiting firm, offering a broad range of solutions from professional contracting to retain and contingency search to recruitment outsourcing endevis is prides itself on its core values of being bold, accountable, help first, passionate and results driven to ensure the talent we bring to our partners matches their core values and overall mission. For more information please visit endevis.com that is e-n-d-e-v-i-s.com. Well, Jason, as I mentioned I’m excited to have you on you have a cool story and a great background working your way up from the hills of Kentucky in the college athletics background and then all the way to the stage of HubSpot’s inbound conference, right i mean you you’ve authored several books, you’ve had some very high performing websites I mean I looked through your bio I could I could probably write a three page paper on your bio you’ve you’ve been called to everything from not your you’re not an asshole I’ve read in your reviews that’s that really positive things about you like that. So yes,

Jason Falls: 

I think some people would disagree with that. I’ll take it

Chris: 

but you your background as a thought leader and expert you have been called a few bad names by trolls so it balances out but you you lead digital strategy for Cornett out of Lexington you speak at conferences you’ve offered three books three books like I’ve said you also write for Forbes, Business Week entrepreneur etc. And what am I missing it seems like I’ve covered a lot but what am I not? What am I not throwing out there that you do podcasting? That’s the other thing Yeah,

Jason Falls: 

there you go. Yeah, I’ve got a couple of podcasts actually. I do one for Cornett the agency where I work called digging deeper which is the live stream that we take off into a podcast and then my my latest book Winfluence, which is about influencer marketing obviously I’ve got a companion podcast for it as well so that takes up a lot of my time those two pieces plus doing the strategy work at Cornett is is is what I what I end up doing if I have any spare time that my family doesn’t gobble up I’m I’m usually trying to write narrative nonfiction or work on some other writing projects that are just for me for fun

Chris: 

with a glass of bourbon to write.

Jason Falls: 

Glass or six. Yeah.

Chris: 

I love Kentucky. I was just there a few weeks ago for an Eric church concert so got to got to hang out in Lexington for a weekend and enjoy my favorite artist in the in the bluegrass state. So nice. We’re talking about influence marketing. And that’s the topic of your most recent book, Jason, but I want to kind of set the record straight here. Does influencer marketing require an Instagram account filled with expertly timed photos in extravagant locales?

Jason Falls: 

Not Not at all. In fact, the whole point of my book is to say to people that we’ve got to stop Thinking about it as influencer marketing with an R on the end of it and think of it as influence marketing because that’s ultimately what we’re trying to do is we’re trying to influence an audience to take action. And when you take away that are what happens is instead of focusing on Instagram and YouTube and maybe tik tok, you widen it out and go, Oh, if I’m trying to influence I could do that on these social channels with these individuals that are called influencers who have followings. But I could also influence using people who are popular in the community, who have actual influence who I would call people of influence, not influencers. And, you know, if I’m a small business in a town, and my really my footprint is geographically limited, then an instagramer, with 300,000 followers is going to help me because less than 1% of them are probably even going to be in the geographic footprint I’m trying to reach. So what you’ve got to do, I’ve told people the analogy before, if your target audience in your local community as a small business has parents, the president of the local PTA might be your best influencer. And it doesn’t matter how many Instagram followers they have. So it’s really about the act of influence the verb, that’s what we’re trying to accomplish. And when you look at it through that filter, you start to open up the blinders and see Oh, wow, yeah, YouTubers are great. And they could be effective here, but so could political lobbyists. So could community activists and community leaders, so could a lot of other things. And so let’s think of influence a little bit more strategically.

Chris: 

What I find interesting about this whole topic is the fact that to influence could honestly be the shortened definition of marketing. Am I wrong? Yeah.

Jason Falls: 

No, you’re not wrong at all. Because marketing really is all about persuading an audience to you know, try buy or consider your product or service. You could also maybe add maybe it’s there to convince the audience to change their thinking about things which brings more into the public relations communications sphere of things. But yeah, marketing is ultimately about influencing people to make decisions based on your product, service brand, etc. And so and when I when I apply that thinking of taking away the R from influencer marketing and talking about influencer marketing, I’m very much talking about the broader, you know, sort of marketing persuasion communications world. The reason that I’ve contextualize it within the filter in the lens of influencer marketing is because so many mainstream media articles that focus on influencers focus on the negative, they focus on the bad, and so many mainstream people who aren’t marketing geeks and talk about marketing in the marketing blogs and circles and networks and conferences like I do or you do aren’t going to see the positive and the benefits of marketing through online influencers or influence offline. They’re just gonna think influencers Oh, yeah, there’s the people who, you know, fake, they’re fake lives and, and do peace signs and duck lips all the time, and they’re not really effective, so I’m not going to spending money on them. I spend 90% of my time working with influencers who have actual influence through online channels, some through offline channels as well and I know that the vast world of influencers out there is very effective and very persuasive for their audiences. So I’m trying to help people see this a little differently so they give it a fair shot for their businesses.

Chris: 

Well, it’s if you think about the power of influence, I mean, we wouldn’t have athletes and celebrities working with brands if it that’s they are they are influencers then and of themselves right. And absolutely. CEOs

Jason Falls: 

Yeah, absolutely. I mean any anybody you go back when you think of influencer marketing on the surface of very superficial level, you think of celebrity spokespeople you know, William Shatner for Priceline or whoever Shaquille O’Neal for seemingly every everything but but now you really have gotten especially with the NCAA is new rules, adjustments for name, image likeness, you’ve got, you know, student athletes, we’ve got one here in Lexington, Kentucky, Messiah Russell, who’s a four time tracking field all American. Well, it also happened that on the side apart from track and field, she’s kind of a fashion style influencer on Tik Tok and Instagram. But only now past in this past June with the NCAA rule, relaxing of amateur status, for name image likeness, only now has she been able to actually monetize the fact that she has influenced with a certain audience online. So student athletes now at the college level, are even getting into the point of being Hey, if I, if my audience, if your brand wants to connect with my audience, I can be a conduit for that. And it’s empowering an entire new generation of entrepreneurs.

Chris: 

So we’ve kind of talked about the bigger picture of influence marketing and really just marketing in general so far, what the who this podcast is, is is directed towards our leaders of organizations and individuals that are tasked with with hiring and retaining the best talent, and, I don’t know if if you’ve heard in the news of late, but it’s really hard to do that on October 4 2021, in this post pandemic, hiring kind of blitz that’s going on right now. And so many of these organizations are now realizing that they don’t have they don’t have any idea what candidate marketing looks like. They don’t know what b2c marketing is, we have a lot of b2b companies that are net trying to figure out, hey, we’ve never had to have a strategy related to recruitment, marketing. And these are big brands, too, right? Like, we’re not just talking about small, medium sized businesses, or manufacturing companies or trying to hire nurses, right? Like we’re talking about large brands that cannot hire people, just last month we had a $27 billion global company come to us and say, we need help, right? And I’m sitting here saying, you’ve got $27 billion, you probably can find some people internally that can help you figure this problem out, right? They’re coming to us as experts, and I’ll take it, but can you kind of help help contextualize for maybe a CHRO or a CFO or maybe you’re maybe you’re conceptualizing for CHRO, to be able to tell a story to the CFO, how important the idea of influence marketing or where b2c marketing comes into play in this bigger picture of recruitment marketing for companies?

Jason Falls: 

Sure, well, I think there’s probably, I think, I’m kind of doing this off the top of my head. But I think there’s three main areas that you might want to focus on. The first of which is you want to make your your business look attractive to the candidates out there that are looking for businesses that are sort of hip to this new era of personal branding and embracing employees that bring you know some of that to the table, as opposed to just the skill set to do the job at hand. And there’s a couple of ways that you need to think about that. First of all, you’ve got to embrace that culture internally and be okay with people inside your company having their own social media presences and leveraging those social media presences for your company, within their own filter, right, it can’t be just you have to dictate, here’s every word that you have to say, and it has to be perfect, or we’re going to be mad at you and you’re going to get fired. It’s got to be here’s what the company wants to communicate to audiences out there. Now you communicate it to your audience, the best way that you know how to communicate to your audience. So embracing the fact that you can have personal brands within an institution or an organization is probably the first key step. The second key step to look attractive to those potential candidates out there looking for those you know, it getting companies is to establish your own company and its individuals as influential, right? So your CEO should be out there, having a personal brand on LinkedIn, or whatever channel makes the most sense for your business. They need to be writing blog posts, or having blog posts written in their name, they need to be posting videos on YouTube and other places for your company and embracing the fact that they as individuals within that company are influencers within the space. About a year ago or so some of the influencer marketing software companies out there that help you kind of find influencers and filter them, they started to redefine the types of people the types of influencers that are out there instead of just social media influencers, which is what we generally think of they separated them out and said, okay, there’s social media influencers and then there’s content creators who really are all about the talent the content they create, and there’s some overlap there certainly, but then there’s also people who are influential because of where they work brand influencers right. The there’s a young lady by the name of Ronnie Mani, who is in HR and and internal relations and whatnot at Adobe. But she ran their influencer marketing stuff for a long time. Most people out there who know who Ronnie Mani is know her because she was at Adobe. Now she’s brilliant. So it didn’t matter which company she was going to be at, she would have been known within the industry. But she’s, you know, probably a lot more influential in a lot of places because Adobe follows her name, right? And so being able to establish your internal people as influencers within the company’s overall vertical, but then within their individual verticals like you, Chief HR officers out there, you need to be an influencer in the HR space because if you are the people who are applying for jobs within your company, you’re going Whoa, this person’s like known, right? And so they embrace that culture, they’re going to allow me to grow into a role where I can also bring my audience and my personal brand at the table. So those are the probably the two biggest things. And then I would also say the third one probably, is really being able to understand how effective a candidate is in managing their social channels and being influential within their own space. I wouldn’t ever say you should only hire people who have X amount of followers online, because that’s very, very misleading. But what I would say is understand if you’re looking for someone to fill, let’s say, a, I don’t know, a marketing assistance role within your organization. Do they blog about marketing? Do they post videos on their social channels about marketing? Are they trying to establish themselves as a thought leader in the marketing space, I don’t think that should be a requirement for them to get the job or be considered for the job. But the candidates that are going to separate themselves from the pack are the ones who are trying to build thought leadership and establish themselves as authoritative in that field as as well as trying to establish themselves as a good connection with you in an interview.

Chris: 

I like where you went there. So can we I’d like to talk a little bit about the organic nature of influence marketing, too, right? Because so often, a CEO might read a book or hear about a podcast where this idea comes to them, and they say, we need that. Right? I want some of that. How do you how do you construct an environment as a leader that allows for individuals to have a voice?

Jason Falls: 

Well, there’s a couple of different ways I think, obviously, if from the top down, the leadership embraces the individuals within the organization having a voice has a huge impact on culture. But the way that that might manifest itself is you’re very open and transparent about the company’s you know, roadmap, the plans of where you’re going, what you’re doing, what products you’re making, what services you’re, what your plans are, you trust the employees to know what’s you know, able to share and what’s not able to share, there are certain things that we got to keep close to the vest because we don’t want to you know, show our hand to the competitors in the world out there. So this stuff is internal, but here’s the things you can talk about, and trust them to talk about things responsibly. But I think you can also say hey, we’re going to have everybody within your department is going to be given an opportunity frequently to post to the company blog, or create content for the company LinkedIn page or social channels or we’re going to do some live streams and we’re going to come and interview you as a part of the company live stream talking about what your department does or what your project is or what your passions are. So having the company proactively put the employees in front of the camera and in front of the microphone as opposed to behind it and let them have a voice through the company’s channels now encourages them to say hey well maybe I can also share my expertise on this one little thing you know in on my own private chair my own personal channels and make them public and not be afraid of doing that because my company embraces that once you start to embrace that culture from the top down you’ll start to see those that want to will take the lead they’ll take the nod and they will start to create content in their own channels that help your company those that don’t want to won’t and that’s okay they don’t have to I don’t think you should ever be a job requirement for somebody to do that. But if they bring that to the table as well it makes them a much more holistically powerful employee and hiring for the company.

Chris: 

How we value it Jason so when we when we think about the the power of influence marketing and utilizing your employees as as a as a megaphone so to speak for your brand how do you how do you put numbers on that right like how do I know there they do their their job well right? They do an equally as well as the person that’s quiet right? How do I measure that like what what is what what do I do with the impact of it? Sure.

Jason Falls: 

So I would measure an internal influencer if you will, the same way I would measure an external influencer you know, have them authenticate through whatever measurement software you’re using for influencers and make sure that their social channels and their posts that tag you are being measured by the company we know the reach we know the frequency we know the engagement rates we know you know how many people they’re reaching, we can do content analysis and understand you know, are they using the talking points we want them to use how often are they you know posting about us etc and you can start to quantify those those things that say look, our external influencers are influencers 12345 and you know, in order they have a reach of this, a frequency of that and an engagement rate of this, well here are our top five internal influencers and here’s how their numbers compare what you’ll probably see In general, depending upon the types of influencers you engage externally, is the externals are going to have a lot bigger numbers in terms of reach and maybe even frequency. But the engagement rates of your internals are probably going to be more impressive, because they’re not necessarily someone with 500,000 followers on Instagram. They’re someone who’s got, you know, 550 followers on Facebook, but the conversations are much more genuine, they’re more with people they actually know, as opposed to fans and followers. And now all of a sudden, you realize, Hey, I can if you do the math, you can say this person’s got 500,000 followers, but an engagement rate of point 00 to 5%. This person’s got 1000 followers, but they’ve got a 6% engagement rate now of a sudden that internal influencer looks a lot more attractive, because you know, you’re going to reach more people with that message.

Chris: 

So you mentioned the word genuine just a moment ago. And with influence marketing, I believe that trust and authenticity play a significant role Can you can you maybe speak to the value and the meaning of those two words with relation to influence marketing?

Jason Falls: 

Sure, I can. And I’m glad you brought that up. Authenticity is starting to get it’s it’s like, synergy. It’s one of those words, people start to roll their eyes at these days. But it’s still very, very meaningful. And so authenticity and genuineness and content, it’s very simple. When you see an actor Come on a commercial on a television and hold up a product and say, I like these q tips, they are the best q tips in the whole wide world, you should buy these q tips and teeing off the teeth, right? You know that there’s nothing genuine or authentic about that they’re reading a script, they’ve been paid to do that. It’s just an ad, right? Well, an influencer in the online influencer space, or even an internal influencer, that you have within your organization, if they constantly go to their audience with, let me take time out from what I really talked about here to promote this product or service, there’s a level of, of revealing of the audience being able to see through that to see the reveal that are they’re just doing this because they’re getting paid or they’re getting forced to, or they’re gonna ask to, and there’s not a real genuine thing here. They can sense that out pretty quickly. If however, the influencer is really, you know, sort of empowered by you and really engaged in your product. And you’ve been really, you know, thoughtful in picking the influencers, who you know, are already brand fans. Now, all of a sudden, when they turn and say, You know what, this is the software I use for this thing, and I use it every day. And let me show you how I use it. Now all of a sudden, the audience is like, this isn’t an ad, this is them making a real recommendation to me. And so the the, the fans and followers of these influencers or of your brand out there, see through that bs pretty quickly. And so that’s why I from an influencer marketing standpoint, talking about online influencers, I’ve always tried to recommend to clients, look, I don’t want to pick 10, who have a big following and do a sponsored post with those 10 people, I want to pick three, and I want to engage them for a year. And I want to do constant stuff with them and bring them into the product development process and let them meet the CEO and have constant conversations with people within the organization because I want them to be passionate about us. And if they’re passionate about us, it doesn’t matter what we ask them to share with their audience, they’re going to share it in a very genuine way that the audience is going to understand they’re gonna be much more trustworthy, much more believable. And if they are that influence marketing investments can be much more effective.

Chris: 

What’s my roadmap, Jason? How do I get to an influence marketing? platform? Like, what am I trying to do? I say, Look, I know, I know how much this means to my organization. I know that we want to do it. I don’t really know how to do it. Right? Like, what are the first steps? We know how do I benchmark myself?

Jason Falls: 

Well, the first, the first thing you have to do is define your goal. What are you using it for, you know, if you’re using it for a platform that we’re going to recruit with, that’s one thing if you’re using it for a platform that you know you’re going to, you’re going to you know, market and promote your product, you’re gonna try to drive sales, you’re gonna try to build awareness, you’re gonna try to change the way people think about something. deciding your goals is always the first step because that informs all the other decisions. And if you do that on the front end, then when you get to the end of measuring how you did, it’s much easier because you had a goal you were going to try to get to here Well, did you get there not. And if you do a really good job of planning to measure from the very first from deciding your goals, then you set those data traps along the way to kind of come full circle back to the goal and say we did or did not achieve this, or we got this much closer to that goal in this period of time. And we knew what we were trying to do. So deciding your goal is is really the first thing and then you’ve got to really look at your audience and understand And okay, who are we trying to reach. And then who are the the influential people out there that also reach that audience. Because if you’re using an influencer that doesn’t reach that audience, you’re wasting your time, right, you want to be able to get to the people you want to get to, but you’ve got to find that third party to reach them. And that goes back to the same strategic mentality we’ve always had with advertising, right? If I’m someone who sells outdoor gear, I’m not really going to do much advertising on the sci fi channel, right, I’m gonna go to the discovery network, or National Geographic, or the outdoor channel, right. And so it’s the same kind of thing, I want to pick influencers that align with my brand, with my content, with my purpose with my goals, you know, for the world, because those are the ones with the where the audience is going to align with me a lot better. Once you figured out who you want to reach and what your ultimate goals are, then it’s a matter of engaging them developing assets that they can use with their audience, and maybe them developing assets that you can then in turn use with your audience and making sure that those messages that you deliver back and forth, either to them or to their audiences, or that they deliver back to you are in line with what you’re trying to do with your goals. And so once you do all that, and you get to the end of the quarter, or the year or the campaign or a benchmarking point, then you can look back and say, Okay, here was our goal. Here are all the data traps, we set, figure out, if we were marching toward that goal, let’s look at them and see, are we going up into the right or are there some hiccups in there that we need to iron out?

Chris: 

Like it. So it’s not often that I have, it’s not true, I try to bring as many marketing people on as I can, to connect with the HR, the HR community, the leadership community, because look, if you’re trying to hire people, you could be in operations, right, you can be in HR, you can be in talent acquisition, you can be a CEO, a lot of different types of people that are listening to the show. Oftentimes, you know, we look at marketing and their relationship with sales. And that is sometimes a great relationship and other times not not so great. More often than not, when we think about HR and marketing, that relationship has not existed. And there’s usually a great amount of education that I’m trying to do with our clients, to help them understand how to build our internal relationship with marketing, because it hasn’t existed in the past. And if you’re in marketing, you likely have some some B hags and some and some really strong goals related to revenue. Because more often than not, in most organizations, marketing is tied to that function of the business, that side of the organization. How does HR at either a senior strategic leadership level or even a middle management level, start to establish a relationship with marketing, where they can begin to work together to achieve organizational goals? Thinking about it from the from the marketing perspective, like what do you need to make dar to think, Hey, I get what they’re putting down, I want to work with them to help them.

Jason Falls: 

I think the biggest thing from a marketing perspective that would impress me or help me really make a connection with an HR director, is if they spoke my language a little bit, if they understood that marketing was a part of their job, even if it’s just candidate marketing or position marketing. If they came to me and said, Hey, I’m thinking about doing some influencer stuff to make sure that we get some better candidates for this next round of job applicants. I’ve identified three or four people who are influential in the HR space, can you help me identify some influential people in the IT world who it makes sense for them to talk to their audience about open positions in our company, if an HR person came to me with that kind of request, I’d be like, wow, they got their stuff together, they know what they’re talking about, yeah, I can help you find some IT people. Now all of a sudden, you’re speaking much more of the same language. But I think it works the other way too. I think when the marketing people want to depend on HR to hire good candidates or whatnot, they’ve got to stop thinking, Okay, HR doesn’t know marketing. So I’m gonna go post this on Ad Age and all these other places, ignore them. I think you’ve got to have that partnership, that collaborative spirit and go to HR and say, okay, you know, we’re looking for these types of candidates, and I’ve got some ideas on some places, some job boards, and maybe even some influencers within our space. That makes sense. But what do you know about your space, you know, is indeed right, or ziprecruiter? Or these other resources that are out there? Should we be there and let’s work together to optimize what we deliver to that particular posting for that environment, because you know, what, indeed might want in order for the job posting to be optimal and have all the accoutrements around it to be, you know, prioritized in their search function might be different than what LinkedIn is going to prioritize. So let’s talk to HR with HR language in mind and have HR talk to marketing with marketing language in mind, all of a sudden you’re going to start to see a little bit more of a relationship there.

Chris: 

Thank you for that, Jason. We’re getting to the end here. And I really appreciate you you coming on today. Can you tell the listeners what Winfluence is and why it might be of interest to them?

Jason Falls: 

Sure. So Winfluence in reframing influencer, marketing to ignite your brand is the name of the book. That’s what it looks like. And you can get it. JasonFalls.com, I’m easy to find. But basically what what the book is, is it’s kind of what we’ve been talking about here. It’s let’s rethink, influencer marketing widen, you know, the blinders a little bit there, pull those back so that we can see that we’re trying to accomplish a goal here it’s a verb, we’re trying to influence people to take action to think differently, to do something to try and buy our product to consider our product. And stop thinking in terms of here’s the sensitive grammar that I want to hold my product while they you know, do a cheesy selfie, were in Bali, or wherever they are. If you think about influencer marketing in that broad context, and the book is really a strategic guide on how to do that there’s a chapter in there, that’s here’s the step by step stuff. So there’s how to do it is in there. But it’s really more about how to think about it. And there’s lots of really good case studies and examples in there for marketers, for b2b marketers for b2c marketers, probably some good inspiration, and then ideas in there for the HR people as well, to sort of understand how to leverage those people who have influence over an audience that you might want to reach, so that you can be successful. Thank you, Jason.

Chris: 

How can people find you online?

Jason Falls: 

JasonFalls.com. And Jason falls on all the social networks. There’s a gentleman in North Carolina, who’s a politician with the same name, who does not like me at all, because I kind of own it. And so I’m easy to find, and that’s what being good on the digital space is all about.

Chris: 

I mean, in fairness, at least people can find him to this way. I mean, yeah, he

Jason Falls: 

he, he often goes by FallsJason like I know his Twitter handle is false Jason and I’m mad at him because he won’t send me a yard sign. He runs for office. I’m like, hey, send me a Jason falls yard sign. He’s like, Nope, I’m like, Yeah, come on.

Chris: 

Definitely go follow Jason on LinkedIn, and Twitter. Those are the least the two primary locations that I keep up Jason, if you’re interested in learning more about Winfluence. I tell you that I came across Jason on Douglas Burdett’s marketing book podcast, so a shameless plug for him. So if you’re wanting a quick synopsis a cliff notes version, that’s a great place to start for definitely go pick up a copy of the book. And that is a wrap on another episode of the talent tide podcast. Thank you for joining us, be sure to follow us on YouTube, as well as like and rate on Apple podcasts and check us out on Spotify and any of the other locations as well. We’ll be back soon, and I’m looking forward to hearing from you. Looking forward to all of my listeners enjoying this episode with Jason and remember that success is on the other side of fear. Thank you