February 15, 2021

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In this week’s episode, Chris’ guest is Matt Adam from NAS Recruitment Innovation. Matt has been a thought leader in recruitment marketing for more than twenty-five years. As Executive Vice President and Chief Talent Strategist with NAS Recruitment Innovation, he takes a national role in leading major account implementation and supporting strategic project consultation for many of their most high-profile clients. They discuss career sites, employment branding and some recruitment marketing! Also, make sure you stay tuned through the end for a nice surprise from Matt and NAS!

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Email: madam@nasrecruitment.com

TRANSCRIPT

Chris:
Hello and welcome to the Talent Tide Podcast, the show that ensures you have the information you need to adapt and evolve your workplace culture as you ride the wave of change in talent management. I’m your host, Chris Nichols, and today we’re going to be talking recruitment marketing with Matt Adam of NAS Recruitment. We’re going to discuss career sites, employment branding and some recruitment marketing today. But please stay tuned through the end for a nice surprise from Matt and NAS.

Matt Adam has been a thought leader in recruitment marketing for more than twenty-five years. As Executive Vice President and Chief Talent Strategist with NAS Recruitment Innovation, he takes a national role in leading major account implementation and supporting strategic project consultation for many of their most high-profile clients. His knowledge of all aspects of recruitment marketing is extensive and has shaped NAS’ evolution over the years, helping to lead the company through many challenges and keeping them at the forefront of the industry for decades. With his pulse on industry trends, he has continued to contribute to their roadmap of technology and service offerings, which has ultimately benefited all of their clients. He’s well known throughout the industry and has been a featured keynote speaker for various organizations like SHRM and NAHCR, sharing his expertise on a variety of topics, including employment, branding and mobile recruiting.

One of the things that I’ve learned about Matt today – Matt, and welcome for being on the show. Thank you for being on the show. I was most excited to just learn from you in the pre-show that NAS has been around for 80 years as a recruitment marketing firm. And I feel like everybody just assumed recruitment marketing firms started in the last 10 years. So, I’d love for you to tell us all a little bit about NAS here at the onset and kind of the history around the organization, because I would have never guessed that we had recruitment marketing firms in the 1940’s. So, again, welcome Matt. Thank you.

 Matt Adam:
Thank you, Chris. I’m really excited about the chance to talk to you and your audience today. So, thank you for having me. Yes, we are not a fly by night organization, I guess you could say. We were founded in 1947 and for the first 50 years of our business, really what we did were Sunday newspaper ads. So, it was helping organizations get their ads out every Sunday. If you remember, the Sunday papers were thick with pages and pages of job openings. Starting at about the late 90’s, Monster.com and CareerBuilder.com came in and changed everything. And it’s been changing ever since. I mean, it has been a wild ride over the past 25 years that I’ve been with this organization.

Chris:
Sure. I’m actually going to – I’m a little disappointed that we don’t have a Mad Men episode devoted to recruitment marketing, knowing that you guys were out there in the market back then.

Matt:
That’s right. I wonder when those martini lunches are going to come back?

Chris:
Probably never at this point, but you know, I’m excited to have this conversation today because this is a topic that’s near and dear to my heart as well, Matt. And it’s one that as a  marketer myself, that I’m passionate about in helping our clients at endevis work through their branding strategies and getting them on the same page as us, when it comes to how we help sell our client partners. Right. And a lot of that comes down to who they are and how they share their brand and how people engage and interact with them. So, the buzzword of the last decade or so has been employer brand and honestly, in 2020, employer brand really rose to the forefront with the covid-19 pandemic and a lot of the social justice rallies and things that took place throughout the year as well. And what I’m not sure that a lot of organizations are sure of is what exactly employment brand is, right? And so, could you kind of help myself and our listeners maybe define what the employer brand is and how it works and what it should be?

Matt:
Yeah, I think that’s a great place to start. You know, the concept of employment branding has been battered around for 20 plus years. But I still find that people have some misconceptions about what employment branding is and what it does and why we should even care about it. So, I think starting with the definition is a good place to start. First of all, back up and say, as you know, there’s lots of different kinds of brands, right? There’s service brands and organizational brands and personal brands. You and I didn’t know each other before this call. I did some research on your personal brand and kind of some of your writings and the thought leadership from the past. So, we all have personal brands whether we want to or not. There’s a lot of definitions I’ve seen about employment branding, and I guess there are two that I subscribe to. The first is more of a formal definition, which would be employment branding, is the process of placing an image of being a great place to work in the minds of a targeted candidate pool. So what employment branding is about is it’s about telling your candidate pool that you’re interested in – what it’s like on the inside, what it’s what that peek into the tent is like. The definition I kind of go to most is one that I think is really much more simple, which is one from Jeff Bezos, which is – your brand is what other people say about you when you’re not in the room. And I think that’s to me, gets right to the heart of it is, you know, what the – your front line employees say, what the word on the street is about your organization and what you’re like to work for. That’s really what branding comes down to.

Chris:
I subscribe to the same the same thought philosophy there, and I’m often telling our client partners the same thing. When your employees are at the grocery store and they see an old friend and they say, “Oh, where do you work at?” And I tell them, and you can see on their face immediately what kind of brand that your organization has. Right. Because they will either light up and say, “Oh, I’ve heard great things about X, Y, Z” or “Oh”, and the silence tells the entire story…

Matt:
It’s a conversation stopper.

Chris:
Right, exactly. So. So now that we understand what a brand is, i.e. what people say about you, how do I – how do I build a great brand? What do I need to do? Say I do have a pretty strong brand. You know, we’ve got some things going on internally where people seem to like working for us, but we’re not sharing that story. Can you expound a little bit on the process behind building your employment brand if it is bad or just sharing in creating something that’s a story?

Matt:
Yeah, yeah, I’m happy to go into the process and how you get from a blank piece of paper to a fully developed, articulated employment brand. If you don’t mind, I’ll just take a quick second to validate why this is even important and why it’s worth talking about. This is a topic that’s been focused on for a long time. But I think sometimes people overlook, you know, why we should even care. And there are some real hard stats on the ROI of doing employment branding and doing it right. Just a couple of points and stats I’ll throw out here. First of all, a strong employment brand leads to 50% more qualified applicants. So, if you’ve got a top of the funnel problem and are just trying to get candidates interested in your organization, having a strong employment brand is the quickest way to turn that spigot on. Here’s another one: companies with the strong employment brand see a 43% decrease in cost per hire. So, again, kind of going hand in hand. You get more people coming in. You have to work less hard. You don’t have to spend as much to get the cost per hire down. And then finally, employee turnover can be reduced by 28% by investing in employment brand. And this to me is the heart of it. It goes to the promise that if you are authentic and true about who you are as an employer and allow candidates to opt in or opt out based on that information, you’re going to get people that are better aligned and a better fit to your company and your company culture and your vision. So that can really reduce your turnover up to 30%, which is which is a huge deal. So, I could go on and on with stats. But those, I think, are some real high level at some of the tangible benefits of employment brand.

Chris:
Well, I love the statistics because they – they each tell a story of their own alone, and then when you combine them, you understand that the elements come back to who you are, who you truly are as an organization. So, can you maybe help our listeners who are in HR or maybe they’re in marketing or they’re in talent acquisition? How do I – what is the process that I go through and trying to share my employer brand, like if I’m in TA, there’s a chance that I have never seen a marketing plan. Right. Maybe I’ve been a recruiter my whole life and I’m really good at managing the process and the operation. But the creative side, I don’t maybe quite understand as well. So, can you kind of share with us how we blend the idea of operations and processes into marketing and creative to create something that we can share?

Matt:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. To me, it comes down to three simple elements, which is – the first is what is our story? Second is, how can we tell our story? And the third is, where can we tell our story? So, this is kind of the foundational work of employment branding is, first of all, what is our story? And that can be a pretty daunting question to answer. Right. I mean, depending on who you’re asking in the organization, you can get wildly different answers, whether someone’s been there two months or twenty-five years, whether someone works in upper executive management or on a front-line employee perspective. So, the trick here is to when you’re defining the what is your story – you’ve really got to get a good cross-section of feedback from your employee base. So, it can’t just be the CEO talking about what the culture is like if that individual is not really on the front lines. And oftentimes you’ll see some disparate change between what the vision is or what the aspiration is, versus what’s happening on the front lines. So, the goal- first start – is any good storytelling is founded and a level of discovery of conversations with your front-line employees and with a dose of reality. This is not a process where you’re trying to gloss over every challenge and make everything look like sunshine and rainbows.

This is where you have to confront some of the truth of your organization. An example I always give is if you’re an organization that is not a nine to five company, you require nights and weekends and have that type of culture – you can’t go to market saying you have great work life balance. You just can’t – you know, you’re going to burn people out. It’s a bait and switch that’s going to do more to hurt your reputation than anything.

Now, if you do have that culture, you can go to market by saying we expect people that are driven, that are hard workers that are willing to put in the extra effort. And if you’re aligned with that, there are some great rewards that come with that type of dedication. So, there are ways to spin it or to position it in a way that it’s still the truth, but it’s told in a way that’s very well-articulated.

Chris:
Sure, I’m a big believer in leaning into who you are. At the core of every business. There’s good. Hopefully. Ninety nine percent of businesses will say, what, we’ll leave that one percent there, but, you know, no matter the challenges that organizations have that they almost always exist to solve a problem, not to make money. Right. So even looking at it like an investment banking. Most people would look at them and say, “Well, they’re just there to make money” but at the end of the day, they’re there to help organizations grow and prosper and achieve their goals. Right. So, from that down to a small mom and pop store in your hometown, they’re all existing in order to share with people something that they need or want and desire. And so, when we think about employer brand and telling that story, whether it’s good or different, I think that’s the key. There’s a good chance it could be different. But that’s OK, because you know what? They’re probably somebody else out there that can lean into that and be interested in what you’re doing. And that’s where analytics plays a big role, too, and understanding that – look, maybe our business doesn’t need hundreds of candidates, we just need three or four really good candidates that know what we – who we are and what we want to be. Right. Maybe that’s how you lower that cost per applicant. So yeah, I’m a big believer in employment brand. What do you think is a –  is something in 2021 from an employment brand perspective that organizations should be focused on?

Matt:
You know, it’s funny, through this past year, you know, whenever the economy gets wonky or kind of takes a downturn, you really start to see who believes in employment branding and who’s kind of just giving it lip service. Right. This is kind of where it starts to separate out who’s serious about this process and who’s not. And 2020 to me was one of those years. No matter what industry you were in, you saw some pretty drastic changes, some honestly had the best years of in history and some went through some challenges. But a refocus on that employment brand and making sure you’re being true to that candidate experience, even within all these changes, I think is critical. We’ve talked and bandied around this concept of agility this year. You know, I think companies have found out that they’ve had to be more agile and more responsive than ever before. Like, look at us. We’re on working from home from our zoom in ways we never would have a year ago. So, I think that ability to continue to adapt and change to whatever the market throws at us is going to be really important. And that plays right into your employment brand. The best employment brands are living, breathing entities. They change you as your organization changes. They can be aspirational for certain, but they have to be grounded in reality and fluid in a way that they can adapt to what’s going on with your candidate and employee base.

Chris:
Sure. So, we’ve kind of talked surface level about employer brand. But there – there comes a time when you’ve got to convert people, right. And so individuals can learn all they want about you on social media or with a quick Google search, but what I’d like to talk about and transition to now is what I feel like is it is an asset that most every organization has or nearly all of them have, but they don’t do a great job of understanding what it’s there for. It’s almost like it’s a necessary evil for a lot of companies. And that’s a career site. Right. And understanding how that fits within your employer brand. So, could you kind of high level give me what a career site should and shouldn’t be?

Matt:
Yeah, for sure, and I think you’re spot on when I think about employment branding assets. Once you get your brand defined and articulated, then you have to take it out to market. And you think about those different what we call touch points you have with potential candidates. You know, first and foremost, your number one touchpoint are your own employees. If your own employees are out there singing your praises and talking about how great it is. That’s the best advertising you can get. Number two is your career site. To us, it’s the nucleus of your employment branding strategy. And when you think about it, virtually every candidate who’s carefully managing their career and looking at you as an employer is going to come to your site at some point in the apply process. And many times, it’s that first impression moment. If you’re a business to business organization, they may never have heard of you, this is your chance to shake their hand, to get them excited about you, to tell your story about why you’re a great place to work. And to your point, I think it is a very underutilized asset for many organizations.

Chris:
So kind of going back to the idea of talent acquisition and HR being involved in marketing, which is a is a skill that statistics show is going to be the most sought after skill in TA/HR both over the next decade, which is marketing and social media and understanding branding. I’m going to give you something that I think sometimes even scares marketing, which is as SEO. So, can you talk about it? Can you simply explain what is maybe and define how we utilize it in our career site development and in creating a tool that people can find?

Matt:
Yeah, I’ll do my best. So, first thing, SEO stands for search engine optimization. So, the easiest way I can explain it is if I take my marketing hat off and my consulting hat off and talk – think from a candidate perspective. So how do candidates look for jobs nowadays? The reality is, is that 80% of candidates start their job search, like we do anything else, is we go to our favorite search engine, predominantly Google, and we type in what we’re looking for: nursing jobs near me, mechanical engineering jobs in Nashville. And we see what pops up. The new war for talent and war for attention is to get your jobs on that first page of a Google result, no one’s going to page two or three anything beyond page one. Right. And oftentimes they’re not even looking past the first two or three results. So, search engine optimization is all about making sure that when people do a relevant search for your jobs, that your organization pops to the top. How’s that for a definition?

Chris:
Well, it’s good. Do you have any recommendations say – how do I know if my company is performing well with relation to SEO?

Matt:
Yeah, so there are a couple – couple of ways you can analyze your site. And then there are organizations that are SEO expert consultants and organizations out there. But really easy is to do some of the searches yourself. So do like I just did. Act like your hardest to fill candidate – the candidate you’re really wanting to target, do searches as they would and see how you pop up. That’s one very simple way. You can also do what we call a site search: Put site: ,  put your website into Google search and it’ll show you what Google sees of your site. Here’s a little nasty secret. And this is not to disparage the applicant tracking systems – the ATS’ out there but, they were really designed more for the backend sorting and filtering of talent. They’re not designed for the marketing of your jobs and for the front-end candidate experience. Right. So, there’s a real big missed opportunity where many organizations have 300 open positions at any given time. Although when you do a site search for them on Google, you know 6 to 10-page results come up. Your job, all of the rich job content that you have, those 300 jobs that candidates are really interested in are essentially locked in a server in the basement of your ATS. So that is one particular challenge where your site has to think about not just what it’s like as an island, but how it interacts with the greater web.

Chris:
Yeah, I think many brands get hung up in being solely focused on who we are, right. And we forget about the candidate experience. And I think broadly, when we say candidate experience, we probably think about the candidates that go on LinkedIn and they blast recruiters for not getting back to them in a timely fashion. That’s to me, that’s the first thing that comes to mind, which in and of itself is a huge problem that we have to get better at.

But you also have candidates, the part of the candidate experience that people don’t recognize is how they got to you in the first place. Right. How did they learn who you were? How are you getting candidates to it? Because we’re not all Google. We’re not all on the great places to work lists across the country. And a lot of times, like here in Nashville, in the area where I live, we have a lot of manufacturing clients. There are a lot of manufacturing companies here that when you drive up and down Interstate 24….I don’t know what one company does to the next or why would you want to work there versus another. So, when I go material handling jobs in there, all the same to me. Right. So how are you capturing that attention? So, you talked about your – your openings kind of being in jail. Right. And not being indexed on Google. Is there something – thinking about a quick fix on that side? Is there something that that organizations can do? ATS agnostic… on their own to solve some of those challenges or at least examine that challenge?

Matt:
Yeah, there are a number of things you can do. I’ll give you two quick ideas. So, the one is to think about what we call job family landing pages. So, let me describe this here for a second. On most career sites, every candidate is kind of funneled through kind of a cattle call down the exact same experience. Right. You click on it. It’s a generic message that talks about the organization and every candidate, whether you’re looking for highly professional or some entry level role, you’re all kind of cattle – called down the same path. Job family landing pages essentially acknowledges that different types of talent are looking for very different things out of their career. So as a sales professional, you might be really interested in earning potential/ flexibility. What kind of travel? Those kinds of things. If you’re an engineer, you might be interested in what kind of technologies I’m working on. What projects do I have? What are the team environments like? So, the best sites in my mind allow you to – a candidate to tap into their specific job family. And the way I kind of liken it is the Amazon experience – when I go to Amazon, it’s a different experience. And when you go to Amazon, right, and it’s serving us both up stuff that it knows we want to buy and stuff that we’re interested in. And this is the same concept with the career site. When I come into a site and click on sales, I know that they’re serving me up value propositions that are interesting to me as a salesperson. And so that’s one very quick way that you can create both a better candidate experience and also better SEO credibility by creating those landing pages – does that make sense?

Chris:
Yeah, no, I think that when we when we look at that – I think some listeners should keep in mind is: have a – have a website budget in mind, right, because I think a lot of companies only think about their website from the customer facing aspect of it, right. In selling or marketing who they are kind of their – their company value proposition. But, really, you need to have at least some significant piece of behind the scenes, I guess, that that shares what you’re like to work for, because if you have three hundred open jobs, for example, you have a significant number of opportunities that you’re trying to fill. And people need to understand what it’s like to work there. They need to understand the different types of opportunities that exist. One of the funny jokes that I think we have in the talent acquisition world is that nobody goes to college to be a recruiter. Right. Nobody does that. And even more so, it’s growing now. But across the country, there are very few sales majors in business schools across the country. Yet every company has a sales team. And so, there’s a lot of organizations out there that are kind of missing the boat on some of those things and being able to share what opportunities exist. If you’re a B2C product, people may only think about the product and not how it gets to being this product or how you get to be seeing about the product. On the B2B side, there’s a good chance no one knows you exist. And some of the largest companies in the world are B2B companies. Right. And so, I think that is something that on the company, the career site that we have to do a better job of. So, when we think about – say, we do have a brand, let’s think B2C for a moment, Matt. So, people know who we are, but if I go to their website – because I want to work there – what about the placement of how someone gets to the careers page? Right. Can you talk a little bit about the findability aspect, even within someone’s website domain, URL, your main homepage?

Matt:
This is something that frustrates me each and every day. And you mentioned at the top of the call and it’s why is the career section such an overlooked, underutilized asset? And one of the things that always shocks me is, is that for most organizations, the number one or number two place that people click on when they come to an organization’s career site is careers. And yet, oftentimes, as we were talking about earlier, it’s not in the top nav, it’s way buried at the bottom. It’s oftentimes hidden under “about us”. Or you’ve got to kind of hunt and peck to find it, which has always perplexed me, and that it’s not given the visibility that I think it deserves. And in the stats bear this out that every click that a candidate has to make to find what they’re looking for; you’re losing 20 to 50 percent of that traffic.

Chris:
Each time, right?

Matt:
Yep, each time. So, if you’re starting with one hundred candidates and they’ve got three clicks to get into the jobs and what they’re looking for, you’re down to twenty – five people, you know, and it just it makes absolutely no sense. I know we’re going to talk about analytics a little later, but this to me is a perfect time where this doesn’t have to be personal. It doesn’t have to be who deserves what visibility. Just look to the numbers and look to the analytics. And if you study those objectively, the true path often becomes apparent that if you see that much traffic going to your career section, it means that that’s what people want and you should give people what they want and remove the friction and make it easy for them to find it.

Chris:
Sure, so let’s talk about that for a moment then because if I’m CHRO that maybe came up on the legal side of the business or I came up in benefits and compensation or maybe I’m the CEO of a small or medium organization and I’m very operational focused. How do I know – how can I evaluate my brand, how can I evaluate my career site, how can I evaluate to your point the analytics around our careers pages? Just because somebody tells me we’re not hiring somebody, what do I do, like how do I figure that? So, can you talk some to the analytics piece and maybe give listeners 2-3 like easy tips to take away if they don’t know about it today, that they could go ask and get that information they need?

Matt:
Yeah! Totally. There’s been some frustration for me in this – in this area and I think to be perfectly frank, this is an area that HR and TA needs to get better at and needs to step up to. This is increasingly how decisions are made and I feel like it’s a bit behind in this particular area. The first challenge I see is that – I can’t tell you how many companies I see that are flying blind meaning, they have no idea how many people are coming to their career site how many people are dropping off, where the people are getting frustrated, where they’re applying. There is nothing that connects the dots on where someone starts their job search, what they do on your career site and ultimately whether they apply or are hired or not, right? So, without that information, you’re essentially trying to make decisions based on feelings and perceptions, not grounded in reality. The best way to make decisions on all this stuff is to take the emotion out of it and to bring in the hard stats. So, the first thing I would say is take a look at what you can understand on your current dashboards and your current analytics and see where those gaps are. And if there are gaps, work to fix that so that you can see that full purview of the candidate Journey. So, I think that’s point 1. Point 2 is that you usually need expertise to help you decipher what to look for, whether that’s an outside consultant, whether that’s someone on your team who’s an HRIS expert that can help you analyze that data. You know dashboard’s the big buzzword right now Everyone wants a dashboard for this and a dashboard for that and I totally get it – but numbers for number sakes is not helpful. And the reality is, I’ve seen a ton of dashboards where it does nothing but inundate you with data. What we always look for is actionable intelligence. What can we understand about a 10-day Journey that we can take action against, that we can continue to evolve? So that’s the next piece and to me that flows into this mindset of being in what I call a growth mindset where your career site should not be something that you build it and they will come and you just forget about it for two or three years and then you build it again. The best career sites that are out there evolve each and every month. You know you’re having monthly and quarterly QBRs and talking about where candidates are getting frustrated and where content is getting stale. You’re continually updating that journey and keeping it fresh. So, when you have a symbiotic relationship with the analytics and with good decision making, it’s a beautiful place because you’re just staying right in step with what candidates want out that journey.

Chris:
I always liken the entire website experience to that of a home. And that what Google sees is the exterior, right, what a search engine sees is the exterior of the home. But once you’re invited in and once you land on the web page, now you’ve walked in the front door. Right, and you can hide a lot of things with the exterior but once they’re inside – what’s that experience that they’re getting, right? And no house is built and never touched again on the inside either. Right?

Matt:
You’re right.

Chris:
Most people are usually continually refreshing or making changes to the inside of the house. You know, maybe, it’s a rug for each season of the year here, but every half decade or so maybe we’re changing out a floor over here. So, you know, prioritizing the needs and the wants that you have for your website are no different in my opinion than the analogy of the home and what you’re doing to renovate and make repairs on it. Right?

This has been a great conversation today. Honestly, we could probably go on for another hour about some things that would be extremely boring to a lot of people.

Matt:
Let’s do a Part 2 for the hardcore listeners!

Chris:
Yeah, I think we’re definitely going to have to do a Part 2 later in 2021. In fact, if you are listening, let us know what you’d be interested in hearing Matt and me talk about next. But this has been a great conversation today, Matt, I really enjoyed it.

What is something that you want people to take away from – if you’re not involved in TA -what’s something that you think organizations can do a better job of – with employment branding, kind of holistically, as an organization? What’s one takeaway that a company could implement tomorrow?

Matt:
I guess one recommendation would be consistency. Thinking about whatever your go-to-market positioning is, make sure it’s consistent at every touchpoint. So, one of the things I see is that there are different messages on your career site than your social media platforms, then when you’re talking to executive leadership. Making sure they’re all singing from that same hymnal is really critical. So, I think that would be one quick and easy piece of advice no matter where you are in that employer branding journey, you can work to strive to get more consistent…

Chris:
message, yeah…I completely agree. So, you’ve got a lot of books behind you right there, Matt. Tell me what your favorite book is that you’ve read of late?

Matt:
It’s funny that you mention that, one of my New Year’s resolutions is to read more books! So, I’ve read a lot of books recently – here’s a good one – “The Obstacle is the Way“.

Chris:
Okay, “The Obstacle is the Way”

Matt:
I’ll do a plug for that.

Chris:
Okay, I like it – “The Timeless Art of Turning Trials Into Triumphs.”

Matt:
That’s it! So, you know, if anything, 2020 has been the year of trials and the reality is you can’t avoid those trials – that’s part of life. It’s part of business and how do you take a lean-in mindset to turning those into trials.

Chris:
I like it. Well, like I said Matt, this has been a great conversation – extremely informative. I want to have you back for a part 2. For the listeners that have hung on this long, we mentioned in the introduction that you had a special surprise for them, so why don’t you tell the folks are listening now how they can contact you and inquire about that special surprise that you have?

Matt:
Yeah, thank you! So, I would say for those of you that stuck with us and allowed us to geek out a little bit, we appreciate it. As a small token of our appreciation, one of the things I’m happy to do is a free employment branding or career site audit. So, it takes just 30 minutes. Complimentary. I can do it via webinar. But I’m happy to spend some time on your actual brand or on your actual career site, and you know if nothing else, point out some areas of opportunity. So always happy to give back and to start conversations in this space. I’m certainly happy to do that if anybody would be interested.

Chris:
I would encourage you to do that if you’re listening. Please take advantage of that. It’s always good to get a second set of eyes on the beast that you’ve created. So, let Matt have a look at it and have a conversation about best practices and maybe learn a little bit along the way. He’s a great guy! So, thanks again Matt for being on and look forward to having you on again soon!

Matt:
Okay, thank you Chris! Appreciate it! It’s been fun!

Chris:
Yes, thank you!